On 19 Jan 2021, SetiOp said the following...
I wish I could find out how to get people interested in it here in Ca again. We had quite a good network in our area at one time.
That's the trouble with a lot of amateur radio, and really some of the trouble I see with some of the people who think they're going to start
a revival with their novel BBS.
The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to try to have a successful contact.
There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore... Other systems like winlink or olivia do it much better. And there isn't any sort of pushing the envelop of technology with it either, like there is with things like mesh.
As my elmer said to me, "You missed the boat by about twenty-five
years." I wish it weren't true, and I'll probably try to set something
up for the Milwaukee metro area this year, but I know it's all in vain.
But I think there's room for experimentation with data
and digital modes. Things like NPR ("New Packet Radio")
lot more sense) much of the argument is against the proposal
and much of the reason for that are septuagenarians and
older mad about PACTOR III. "What's wrong with AX.25?!"
We still have copper cables here in the UK! Most of the time, it feels like we're still in the dark ages with connectivity, internet and communications etc.
the speed can be
at least 2400 bps, I think any slower than that, it would need to be a different theme entirely, just plain ascii or something and very cut
down.
On 01-20-21 14:27, tenser wrote to SetiOp <=-
First, packet. So an initial observation is that the thrill of
packet for _most_ users just isn't going to be there. What does
it really offer? The ability to send email and exchange files?
At the whopping speed of 1200 BAUD? Yeah, that's just not that
cool. Digital modes like FT8 and FT4 at least let you earn awards
and work DX; but packet is just like talking on the local repeater:
no one is going to get a certificate to hang on one's wall for it.
So the remaining uses end up being special-purpose, like traffic
handling. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's be
honest: if you're not a traffic handler, you're unlikely to find
it particularly interesting. C'est la vie; the heaviest use of
my local repeaters seems to be the nightly traffic nets. Hmm.
Another issue is that the node software has bitrotted to the point
of often not working. I've fixed lots of bugs in mine; it now
"works", to a point, but is disappointingly fragile. It's clear
that that code hasn't gotten a lot of love in the modern era.
AMPRNet is more interesting, but what do people want to run on it? Standard Internet services, just over an RF circuit? Well, that's
cool, I guess. I set up a Unix machine as a timesharing "host"
on my AMPRNet subnet, and wrote a routing daemon, and documented
What we really need, I think, to make data on amateur radio really interesting, is an embrace of the new. Something like IPv6 over a
better link-layer protocol (perhaps 6LoWPAN?) and then things like
HamWan and the BBHN stuff (which seems to have basically shut down).
Then we can start to do some cool stuff.
But we've got to get folks interested first. That's the hard part.
My ideal would be (as part of a wider plan of communications resilience) to have bbs FTN running over RF packet as a wider option for people to connect should TCP/IP over 'mainstream' internet channels be taken down due to act of god or man etc..
practice exams before I feel I'm ready. One of these days I'll be VE3<something> and be able to press talk on this handy talky that I have...
The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to
There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore...
First, packet. So an initial observation is that the thrill of
packet for _most_ users just isn't going to be there. What does
So the remaining uses end up being special-purpose, like traffic
handling. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but let's be
AMPRNet is more interesting, but what do people want to run on it?
Which goes back to the point of bugs and such in the software we're
all using on e.g. AX.25. Arguably all of that should be rewritten
in a modern, type- and memory-safe language, but then one wonders,
What we really need, I think, to make data on amateur radio really interesting, is an embrace of the new. Something like IPv6 over a
On 01-22-21 03:48, JF wrote to Avon <=-
Amen! I'm very interested in this, and I've been pondering about it for
a while. What I imagine is something equivalent to how BBS used to
work: mail would be transferred from BBS to BBS over the phone lines,
from point to point, in such a way as to avoid any long distance
charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from one VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't
necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail could
be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in
place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet,
phone, HF, VHF, etc.).
Amen! I'm very interested in this, and I've been pondering about it for a while. What I imagine is something equivalent to how BBS used to work: mail would be transferred from BBS to BBS over the phone lines, from
point to point, in such a way as to avoid any long distance charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from one VHF station
to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail could be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).
charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from o VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail coul be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).
Now that sounds like an interesting project.
scale it in a way that others can jump on board and do the same. Without nodes in a mesh you don't have much resilience going on if you can only chat with yourself or 1-2 others locally.
But I think there's room for experimentation with data
and digital modes. Things like NPR ("New Packet Radio")
Hadn't heard of it before now, but it looks pretty fascinating. A hell
of a lot more interesting then AX.25.
lot more sense) much of the argument is against the proposal
and much of the reason for that are septuagenarians and
older mad about PACTOR III. "What's wrong with AX.25?!"
That describes literally every aspect of the ham radio community. ARRL
and every club are so worried about losing the old guys with outdated interests that they keep wasting all their resources on that fear. Talk
to any of the kids under twenty-five and they couldn't care less about EmComm, packet, Facebook groups, etc. They want to experiment and tinker and innovate and build, communicate about it on Discord... and send
memes on SSTV.
That "when all else fails" mantra is fear-based too. "Please don't take our non-profit tax-free status and don't sell off our freqency allocations." We should be selling governments, youth, hackers, makers, and whoever else on the notion that we can be innovators again.
I don't know why I'm ranting. I started this reply merely to mention
that I find your posts, Tenser, to be really valuable.
Another issue is that the node software has bitrotted to the point
of often not working. I've fixed lots of bugs in mine; it now "works", to a point, but is disappointingly fragile. It's clear
that that code hasn't gotten a lot of love in the modern era.
Which software exactly?
On 01-22-21 15:48, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-
charges. The same could be done with RF: transfer FTN messages from o VHF station to the other (or maybe even HF), so that we don't necessarily depend on the internet in case of an emergency. Mail coul be routed via different mediums, and there would be a mechanism in place to avoid duplicates and figure out the best path (Internet, phone, HF, VHF, etc.).
Now that sounds like an interesting project.
I agree. This type of project is something I could jump on board with.
On 01-24-21 03:14, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Approximately all of it, but I'm referring specifically to
the AX.25 tools and apps for Linux. An interesting example
Another issue was in the `ttylinkd` daemon: this is basically
an interface to the venerable talkd(8), and speaks the same
weird undocumented protocol. But its handling of that protocol
was broken (it didn't talk to the local daemon on the right
interface) so I had to fix it. That was really annoying.
I attribute all of this to this software being overly complex
and essentially unmaintained. I could fix it locally, but
its tedious.
Who knows what bugs are lurking in the kernel AX.25 implementation?
On 01-22-21 12:41, SetiOp wrote to Andre <=-
The nostalgia is briefly interesting, but then people move on. The only reason APRS is so popular is because it's built in to radios and takes zero effort to setup. On the other hand, packet radio is a absolute nightmare just to get the hardware/radio working right, even more so to
Yes I agree with you. There are enough of us still interested to build
a network, but it does need to have a new twist to keep people
interested. Packet has always seemed a bit complicated to me and it
didn't seem to evolve like other technology, maybe because of the limitations on VHF radio bandwidth.
There just isn't any benefit or usefulness to packet radio anymore...
I would agree partially with that. The same could be said for phone
modes as well now that we have cell phone technology. It isn't really a fault of the technology as much as what we choose to do with it. APRS
is a good example.
On 20 Jan 2021 at 03:10p, deon pondered and said...
I would love to get data flowing over the air - with no ongoing costs a 3rd party, even if it was a slow speed. Building out (or optimising protocol to support this slow speed would be fun...
I too would like to do this. I'm hot on building communications
resiliency and I like the idea of a ascii BBS running contemporary bbs software available to folks to access over RF.
I've not really played with the older 'built by hams for packet radio
bbs' software but from what I've seen I'm not sure I would really like
it.
My ideal would be (as part of a wider plan of communications resilience) to have bbs FTN running over RF packet as a wider option for people to connect should TCP/IP over 'mainstream' internet channels be taken down due to act of god or man etc..
I have F6FBB via radio and internet telnet lu8fjh.dyndns.org:6300 lu8fjh.dyndns.org:3694 Uronode Netrom tcpip Node
Packet is alive and well here in Maine, and we're linked into New Hampshire and Canada via Houlton, but you're right: it's a very niche market. It's primarily EMAs and hospitals linked with club ECTs and ARES groups. Most of the folks around me in Southern Maine that are tinkering with it here seem to be retired folks with the time to constantly tweak audio levels and mail forwarding rules. I'm one of a few exceptions, age-wise, at 41 years old. However, I'm in it for the emcomm as well.
For giggles, I set up a security level for known hams on my board, and
set up telnet links in the Doors menu to the nodes I'm a sysop for:
WS1EC at the Cumberland County EMA, and W1YCA at the York County EMA;
and their respective emergency communications teams (ham clubs). I'd
love to have a radio link into my BBS, but sadly it'd just be me, and it def needs 9600 to be barely tolerable and still color ANSI.
On 03-14-21 11:25, Roen wrote to SetiOp <=-
Boy, I wish I had linked up fsxNet sooner, I missed a great
conversation! I spent all evening last night reading this thread. All great, valid points.
Other than APRS, there's not a
lot of packet around here that I know of
On 03-18-21 07:47, Nkeck72 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
In article <60531E2D.149.fsx_ham@finalzone.ddns.net>
"Vk3jed" <vk3jed@21:1/109> writes:
Other than APRS, there's not a
lot of packet around here that I know of
I'm sort of in the same situation, we have APRS and WinLink on VHF, but not much else in the way of packet.
Having an RF BBS sounds like it would be awesome, though.
Boy, I wish I had linked up fsxNet sooner, I missed a great
conversation! I spent all evening last night reading this thread. All
Packet is alive and well here in Maine, and we're linked into New
For giggles, I set up a security level for known hams on my board, and
set up telnet links in the Doors menu to the nodes I'm a sysop for:
so I can start setting something up. I am hoping to link into Ohio since I am only 5 minutes from Lake Erie.I'm certain they'd love to have a Canadian on their network. We used to get a thrill seeing DX contacts crawling our nodes from New Brunswick, and they loved seeing us make our way up.
Thats pretty cool. I have a radio telescope in my back yard so I wrote a door to access statistics and get the status of it. At one point I had it soA radio telescope? Cool! Most I've done with space is download SSTV from the ISS and images from NOAA, and the one contact via the ISS repeater.
Is AMPRNet still a thing? I thought I had seen somewhere that it was
kind of going out.
Hello everyone! I am curious if anyone has packet radio being used in their local area for something other than APRS? Packet has pretty much disappeared here in Ontario, Canada, although APRS is still active. I appreciate your time.
On 05-03-21 04:50, tenser wrote to mobbyg <=-
AMPRNet is still very much a thing, but it's a massively
underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.
Here in east Tennessee we have a few Winlink nodes as well as quite a
few APRS digipeaters and even a couple weather stations. We don't have
any AX.25 nodes but I plan to change that here in the near future. :P
underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.
On 05-05-21 20:04, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-
underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.
I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I
used to have an allocation years ago but I lost it at some point. I'll have to try harder I guess. For now I am going to focus on getting the
RF running here.
Bummer. If you can't raise your coordinator, it's work asking on the 44net mailing list.underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I
On 05-08-21 17:02, SetiOp wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Bummer. If you can't raise your coordinator, it's work asking on the 44net mailing list.underutilized resource and more people should get allocations.I haven't had any luck reaching any coordinators here in Ontario. I
Yeah I admit I haven't tried that, I'll have to do that. I am sure
there is some coordinator looking after the block who can help on the list. I'll try that.
On 06-13-21 22:30, Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: Vk3jed to Nkeck72 on Fri Mar 19 2021 05:01 pm
Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?
Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?
On 06-13-21 22:30, Phigan wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Re: Re: Packet Radio
By: Vk3jed to Nkeck72 on Fri Mar 19 2021 05:01 pm
Do you or anyone know what software to use to connect a regular DOS BBS
up on packet radio with a KISS TNC? or would you need a fancier TNC?
Sysop: | Martin J Mitchell |
---|---|
Location: | Scotland |
Users: | 5 |
Nodes: | 10 (0 / 10) |
Uptime: | 53:32:11 |
Calls: | 127 |
Files: | 29,254 |
Messages: | 54,760 |